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Post by Dr. Robert Gotcher on May 8, 2023 2:15:44 GMT
Will people who believe that the Eucharist is only a symbol be damned?
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Post by John Schroeder on May 9, 2023 12:56:02 GMT
In our small group discussion, we all agreed we have hope they will not. We spoke very briefly on this but there was consensus that we all walk through life trying to find truths about our faith but can of course fall short. We fall short in our misunderstanding of the faith sometimes and thus can sin for example. Once we begin to understand the truth of our faith, then we have the task of embracing and living the truth. The same goes for many christians. They embrace many truths about Jesus Christ and at the same time ignore many others. None of us ever has a perfect understanding no matter how much time God provides. We all go to our death with misunderstanding.
The matter of the knowing and understanding the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ has been a matter of the heart in my opinion. All those disciples who left the Lord in John 6, after having seen the miracles and listening to the teachings of Jesus, suddenly cannot accept on saying on the Eucharist. I've seen this play out in life frequently. In all instances, there was an incredulity on the part of others, a lack of trust in Jesus Christ! Yes people believe Jesus can do many miracles but for some odd reason, they want to hold that he can't change the bread and the wine into his body and blood. It seems almost silly for it to be an issue but here we are 2000 years (almost) later and the argument continues. People actually think they can disagree with Jesus. And yet God allows it. He allows for our imperfect understanding. Purgatory and heaven will set all of us straight.
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Post by Tom Brefka on May 10, 2023 19:56:27 GMT
Our God is not a God that is looking for eternal damnation for all. Our God is quite the opposite; He wants everyone to be saved, but He also will not force us to be saved. Our God is a loving and forgiving God. Our God gives us grace and is willing to see past our imperfections. In quickly searching the net, I don't even believe that the belief that the Eucharist is only a symbol is even a sin? I would assume if one believes it is only a symbol, the grace and forgiveness of ones sins will not occur. I do believe that viewing the Eucharist as a symbol rather than the true body and blood of Jesus is something many struggle with throughout their lives and with greater wisdom and understanding one becomes to find the truth.
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marc
New Member
Posts: 8
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Post by marc on May 11, 2023 2:55:27 GMT
I think if it is of ignorance they believe that they hopefully will still get through the pearly gates. God wishes us to come to know the truth though so good catechesis and so on is helpful for Catholics and all really. I think it might be more problematic for people that hear the Eucharist is the body and blood and then still do not investigate or pray about it or care, that's a tougher spot - maybe just 1,000 years extra in purgatory but hopefully they still make it, or maybe they will not be damned because they think it is a symbol but because they did not take serious and pursue their faith. I think the most problematic situation is for the full-blown heretics on the matter, those educated well in the faith, sees God's presense in the world, then teach counter to Church teaching, and still walk away from the table after being corrected by the Church. Bottom line though; if God says it is so then it is so. We are not the authors of truth. Even so no one goes to the grave with complete understanding...maybe even the greatest saint theologian only knew 5% lets say, who knows. Understanding is important but it is not the only facet of faith. I hope for those that believe it is only symbolic will come to trust in Christ and the Church.
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Post by Kevin Doll on May 12, 2023 16:24:01 GMT
There are so many things in the bible that are literally hard to digest. Noah and Jonah for example but with faith we believe that it is true. We cant know for sure how it all happened just that our scripture says so. The Eucharist is the same, we find the teaching in the bible in a few different spots so we know what Jesus said is the truth. Why it is so hard for people to believe in the truth of Jesus will always allude me. Now if they will be dammed for not believing in the words of Jesus is not for me to say. Jesus has forgiven much more evil things than not trusting in the word.
The evil one I believe is again rooted in this misunderstanding among good Catholics. If he can draw us away from Jesus he wins. If we don't believe Jesus is present in the Eucharist he wins. I wonder how people can believe God created the world and everything in it but cant believe he will come down in the Eucharist to be close to us. When he said it is so it is so. Why do people restrict God and what he can and cant do. I don't believe God would dam people for not believing but I do believe it saddens him every time someone rejects him and his teachings. According to St Francis you are dammed for not believing. Not sure if God would actually dam you for that.
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Post by Dr. Robert Gotcher on May 15, 2023 13:12:35 GMT
Is it a sin to believe the Eucharist is only a symbol? The transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is an infallible dogma of the Church, confirmed by scripture and magisterial teaching for two millenia.
"If anyone says that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of bread and wine remains together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ and denies that wonderful and unique change of the whole substance of the bread into his body and of the whole substance of the wine into his blood while only the species of bread and wine remain, a change which the Catholic Church very fittingly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Decree on the Sacrament of the Eucharist, can. 2; DH 1652).
Any baptized Catholic who rejects the teaching is committing an act that is objectively gravely sinful.
Whether there are subjective mitigating circumstances that reduce the culpability is a different question.
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Post by johnvanhecke on May 16, 2023 2:27:50 GMT
I don't want to be the one who decides that they go to hell! And there are certainly plenty of potentially mitigating circumstances to work with. But it is God that knows the heart he judges. It's why someone who looks like the holiest of the holy might have a hard time on judgement day when a thug who swears like a sailor might actually be, genuinely, more able to recognize the God he loved in his own way here.
At it's root it seems grave to disbelieve Jesus' words. To not trust him enough - that he was tricking us - or worse - that he isn't able to do what he says. That would be a failure of Faith. In that way you would think every honest Christian should be liable for not believing in the presence. And yet how hard have so many preachers worked to obfuscate and confuse their congregations and readers. The real life people that I know are no match for that sort of "expert testimony". And that alone may save countless souls.
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Post by dylanmchugh on May 16, 2023 22:19:53 GMT
The Church teaching says that during the prayer of consecration, the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ - body, blood, soul, and divinity. Catholics are obligated to believe in this doctrine of the real presence because it is the "source and summit" (CCC 1324-1327) of the Catholic faith. This means that it is fundamental to our spiritual growth and relationship with Jesus Christ. Furthermore, in Luke 22:19-20, Jesus says, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me...This cup is the new covenant of my blood, which will be shed for you." To be "damned" means to be eternally separated from God. By choosing to ignore Jesus' words at the Last Supper and the Church's subsequent teaching that the Eucharist at Mass is the source and summit of our faith, one is ignoring God Himself.
I pray that nobody is damned in hell.
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